‘A Question I Didn’t Know Was a Question’: Growing up Complementarian, Planning a Wedding, and Marrying a Female Pastor

In the conversation for gender justice and equity in the church, all members—male and female—are indispensable contributors. In egalitarian settings, men as well as women have a responsibility to revisit traditional gender roles, wrestle with the scriptures, and honestly appraise the Christian church’s historical and contemporary indebtedness to patriarchy. 

I sat down with Jeremy Watson, who is currently in the final year of training for pastoral leadership, to chat through both his journey from complementarianism to egalitarianism, planning a wedding, and now being engaged to a woman who is also training for pastoral leadership. Our conversation has been edited for length and clarity. 

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I understand that you grew up in a church setting in which women were not allowed to lead. What was this like?

I grew up in a very conservative complementarian upbringing with parents that both were quite adamant about the roles of men and women, both in the church in normal life. It was very much a dominant and submissive kind of relationship and so everything from, you know, the ‘womanly instinct’ to have kids rather than work so that it was the men’s job instead to bring in all the money—these were some of the different traditions and things. And that’s continued even to this day with influences on how our wedding should run, on how I should pastor, and so on. There’ve been jabs here and there at the type of theology I have or need to develop. 

Yeah, what has planning a wedding has been like?

Well, it started off a lot more difficult with the traditional idea that it was on the bride’s family to pay …

Right, right. 

 … which has since adapted quite significantly. This was a big deal for my parents—it’s within their own beliefs so they’ve come quite a ways with that—but it’s just the whole different roles that is a key theme throughout things like this. What is the ‘man’s’ role, what is the ‘woman’s’ role—these were some of the things I’ve had to question from my upbringing. 

Different roles in terms of life, family, decision making—is that right?

Yup, yeah for sure. 

I’d be interested to hear what coming to an egalitarian theological college and being in an environment which held a very different understanding of gender roles—was it quite a difficult process?

For me, the journey actually started earlier than that, I believe, in hearing from Lindy [Jacomb] down in Karori speaking at a young adults weekend who brought up a question which I didn’t even know was a question: why are women not in pastoral positions more? And so this is where I started wondering about what my inherent beliefs were? What did I actually believe and what did I need to look at more? 

This did develop at Carey—especially in seeing more women in positions to which they were absolutely called. Coming to Carey and also meeting my now-fiancée who is also training to be a pastor also obviously prompted some of those questions!

What was that experience like? Did it feel quite offensive, or was it more gradual? I liked your phrase ‘discovering a question you didn’t know was a question’—coming to a point of thinking, ‘huh, this isn’t even something in my framework of thinking. 

I didn’t feel convicted. I just felt it was something I’d never given much thought to and was therefore an opportunity to grow in my learning apart from what I’d grown up with. And while in my upbringing there were some explicit notions of those type of gender roles, it never was drilled in to the point where it felt like everything I did was affected. So it was more a gradual learning and opening of my eyes-type experience. 

What was the main catalyst for this journey? Was it meeting women who were clearly called, was it having to spend some time reading biblical texts or commentaries, or kind of all of the above?

I believe it was first understanding the women in my life who have been in pastoral positions and starting to question those key scriptures that people often bring up. Surely if, as some of them are read, a woman can’t speak in the church at all, then why is the line being drawn in some places and not others? It was these types of questions that led me to undertaking a pretty big personal study as scripture is very important to me. That’s when I had a look at some of those key passages and read both complementarian and egalitarian views on them. Pairing that with my experiences, I ended up feeling quite comfortable with where I’ve landed. 

And where did you land?

Oh! [laughs] fair enough: That women are just as capable and called as men are to positions of leadership in the church. 

In terms of your upcoming marriage, how are you guys thinking about your dual vocation and call to pastoral ministry? How does that balance and play out?

That’s been a big question and continues to be a big question, but as of this moment we’ve been talking about the likelihood of a joint-pastoral role which may only be advertised as a single role. Both of us would work together in a church where I’d have more experience and training with young people and take that sphere of ministry, and Bry would take wider church involvement. It’s been interesting, though, even hearing comments about that type of setup where people go, ‘Okay, I guess she can still be in ministry as long as she’s still reporting to you’—or something like that. I try not let those comments flourish.

Thinking about that role men have to play in gender equity—presupposing an egalitarian perspective—what are some of the areas in your life you see coming into play? Like, what are some of the areas in your life where you hold power of influence and you think, this is a really key part of this journey towards changing that culture?

In my specific context, I think it would be being strong in your beliefs and never giving those offhand comments an inch. Not in a prideful way, but I think it’s important to do your homework and know what you believe. Joking around is so unhelpful. 

Structurally, it comes right down to how our relationship works regarding roles and gender. Getting it right with us—and knowing that the buck doesn’t stop with me as a man—is vital for helping us with getting right at wider cultural, family, or church levels.

It was interesting to reflect with Jaimee—she remembers going to a wedding in which the couple was egalitarian by conviction and then in their vows the woman said she’d submit to the man. It was this moment of not really thinking about what they were doing, they’d just found an old vow and used it. I notice that in myself sometimes about those sorts of traditions where some actions like Steph [my fiancée] proposing would feel ‘weird’ to me. I didn’t think I thought that, but it was one of those moments of inner contradiction. 

Totally, and weddings bring those things out so much. So many traditions arise from troubled beliefs. So thinking about where these traditions comes from and how it communicates who we are is so important.

I assume you still have a number of family members who are still complementarian. How do you gracefully live alongside without, as you’ve mentioned, ‘giving it anything’?

I think it is really key to not be patronising that they are on this journey—that is not always for us to decide or vocalise. If you can have conversations well, which in some instances you very much can’t, but if you can have conversations well and still walk away knowing there is love and respect there, then that’s an awesome place to be in with family and friends. As soon as it turns aggressive or toxic, an ‘agree-to-disagree’ approach could be had, but then if there are oppressive things coming out of that, I’d want to say more. In the context of good relationship though, it’s not always conversation that changes someone’s mind. 

Do you have any final thoughts?

It’s always tricky for me having conversations with women who have a complementarian stance. Then it becomes me telling them what I think they should do. It’s a tricky thing in my mind. I think I’m being empowering but for them it’s me telling them what to do. One of the most important things for me, and alongside my fiancée going forward, is in learning when to step back from what I think and empower women to vocalise their own call. It’s an ally-type thing of not trying to take the fight ourselves but empowering those who are really in the thick of it more than I am. 

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Jeremy Watson is a third year pastoral leadership study at Carey Baptist College. Andrew Clark-Howard is currently an editor at Metanoia.